Paleoconservative Delusion And Upgrading The Immigration Debate

On Thursday and Friday, discussing Lou Dobbs’ departure from CNN, quite predictably, the standard Republican immigration debate broke out on this site, complete with suspicions about conservative credentials and cautions about discrimination and political impracticality. Sigh. This is really childish sandbox fighting and we should really aspire to more elevated endeavors. I’m not saying that people don’t sincerely mean well. But, these are visceral reactions and not clear perspectives about human realities. I’d like to think that it isn’t entirely unfeasible that the discussion and thinking might be lifted above the level of the typical Internet food fight.

In the first place, as one whose comment might have landed me in the “not-conservative-enough” category, I feel I need to define myself. I’ve been what I consider to be a rigorous philosophical conservative for all of my life. But, I long ago began distinguishing between philosophical and sentimental conservatives. Mine isn’t a conservatism of reactive feelings, but one of a consistent system of clearly consistent ideas. But more important than my own reputation, is the popular perception of conservative and Republican ideals and how they are presented and understood.

We’ve had some discussion at Texas GOP Vote of the immigration issue and the Republican relationship with Hispanic Americans. For one thing, many legal Hispanic immigrants are also very dissatisfied with government’s indulgence of illegal immigration. I have spoken with them. Hispanics are not an ideological monolith, and it’s simplistic and demeaning to think that they are. However, any of them can be deterred by actual or perceived animosity to a supposedly “alien” population. Admittedly with a generous assist from popular American media, Republicans have long lost almost all of the votes of blacks, despite the fact that most blacks are more sentimentally empathetic with conservative values than the average American in general. And that is similarly true with Hispanics. We shared a definition of “paleoconservatives” as generally holding to a European heritage that supposes that that heritage is uniquely able to assimilate American values. Horse hockey! In the first place, HELLLOOOO! Perhaps you haven’t noticed the kind of thinking that has dominated European nations over the past century. Have you not heard the fretting of American conservatives that Obama and Congressional Democrats are steering America toward European-style socialism? America is not the ultimate evolution of European culture. America broke away from European culture. Monsieur Perrault is not advocating for the lessons of the French.

The ideals of human integrity, freedom and equality under the law are not the bestowal of European culture. They are the endowment of the creator! And all men are competent to understand, appreciate, and embrace them: more so those from feudal and despotic lands than from fainthearted, socialism-tainted European realms. I think Pat Buchanan is a decent enough guy and I like him. But, I’ve never been a supporter of him or his paleoconservative proclivities. In an immigration discussion now many years ago when he was still sojourning as a Republican presidential candidate, Pat asked, “Which do you think we could assimilate better, a million Mexicans or a million Europeans?” He didn’t even answer, assuming that the obvious answer was the Europeans, which even then struck me as a passing peculiar assumption from a conservative.

In fact, we now have those millions of Mexicans. And even if…probably especially if they included some academically corrupted eggheads, if they had been Europeans, they would have demanded a lot more in favors and vacation days, and invested a lot less in effort. Although we are a decade or two behind them (in fact, most Europeans are making corrective efforts in our direction while we plunge in theirs), even in the USA, our biggest menace is not the Hispanics over our southern border, but Americans within who have stewed in the kind of liberalism that dominates our popular culture and educational institutions. The famous wall or fence that some want constructed on our southern border, besides being an ugly and foreboding eyesore, would seal industrious people of a largely Christian background out and lock spoiled, somewhat secularized, Western potential socialists in. I also think he's a decent, well-meaning guy, but the most grotesque moment of the 2008 Republican primary campaign was when Tom Tancredo even proposed a temporary moratorium on legal Hispanic immigration! Bless his poor pathetic heart!

Listen, I’m not for a minute saying that massive illegal immigration is a good thing. It’s true that illegal immigrants strain our already inadequate facilities and services. American immigration should be orderly and legal, with dangerous and parasitic elements sorted out. But, taking advantage of free stuff, including unhindered passage into the country, is not specifically what Mexicans do. It’s what human beings do. Witness Cash for Clunkers. Liberals extolled the success in an amazing discovery: If you offer people free money, they’ll actually take it! This is the brainchild of a host of liberal geniuses!

I have a couple of overriding points to make in closing. First, Europe is about to be overrun by a Muslim population and its values. Here again, we are some years behind but inclining in the same direction. With a great assist from abortion, European-American and African-American birthrates are dwindling while the Muslim birthrate is expanding. Only one other ethnic group has a healthy birthrate: Hispanics. And they are largely of a Catholic heritage and understand the value of what is no longer fresh to many Americans: freedom and equality under the law. Hispanics are probably America’s best hope of (and) reviving the original American ideal, which our current government is abandoning. Conservatives should be organizing English instruction, job fairs, and American history classes. If conservatives can’t sell their values to Hispanics, they might as well give up and roll over and die.

Secondly, it’s a legitimate problem, but with America staring scarcely fathomable fiscal and monetary folly in the face, illegal immigration is barely on the stove, let alone the front burner. If America defaults on its debt and its creditors stop propping it up, or if America loses is triple-A bond rating or the American dollar loses its status as a world reserve currency and/or when massive inflation kicks in, or when our already extravagant budget is flooded with the glut of Social Security and Medicare claims that is now on our doorstep, a lot of people who will be in a heap of trouble, will be amazed at how worked up they were over illegal immigration, if they remember it at all. If America has any hope of overcoming the disaster its gotten itself into, conservatives will need to have penetrated deep into the black and Hispanic populations with the conservative gospel.



Let me unpack your fairy tale and set ou straight. Hang on the truth can be tough. Hispanic: is a made up demographic. It was made up by Richard Nixon in an attempt to create and isolate a counter to the urban black voting block controlled by the DNC. Hispanics, Latinos, whatever deserve NO SPECIAL RACIAL TREATEMENT. NO ONE DOES. You are either an American, legal resident, legal immigrant or you are here illegally a criminal and need to get out now after being arrested, jailed, fined and deported with a criminal record to prevent your return. That is the law and if he People wanted it any other way the law would be in the ignorant, corrupt place you wanted it to be rather than what the people want.

The real issue with people of any color or background is a simple one: either you are an American citizen or a LEGAL RESIDENT/LEGAL IMMIGRANT or you are here ILLEGALLY. My wife is an immigrant of color from Asia. Our son is an American period. My wife is working on her citizenship LEGALLY. That is very different from an ILLEGAL ALIEN. Anyone following the law has my support, anyone breaking it doesn't ahve my support nor should they.

I also am shocked at your racial attack on people who's ancestors came from Europe. We live in AMERICA NOW, not Europe. Our laws are AMERICAN, not European. I am sick of RINO's in the GOP bending over backwards to try to twist logic and spin lies to accomodate SHAMNESTY. We are not going to buy it. ILLEGAL ALIENS are (by the FBI's own stats) largely violent, mentally disturbed criminals. The rest are ignorant uneducated welfare peoepl with their hands out and they are destroying the skill trades and they FEEL ENTITLED to take from AMERICANS.

Let me put it simply. We true conservatives are going to purge the GOP of idiocy like yours. You and people like you want to play the race card on us all the time because your argument is immoral and indefensible, a child could unpack it. How dare you attack my race, culture and values and tell me I have to serve illegal aliens. I and mywife waited over a year after we were married for a Visa and followed the law these illegal aliens mostlyfrom Mexico are drug dealing thugs and deserve no more than deportation and jail. I am a veteran, married to a woman of color and have worked all my life. If the RNC thinks we in the base are going to tolerate the Juan McShamesty's or Phil Grahamnesty's any longer they are insane. We would rather LOSE EVERY SINGLE RACE FOR OFFICE THAN TO HAVE ONE MORE AMNESTY SUPPORTER BETRAY US FROM INSIDE THE BELTWAY. Not only do I vote but I have learned that I cna have a direct impact targeting RINO's in specific elections with blogs, cash and working against them. Regardless of what peopel like you think, there are millions of people like me in the base and we are now FULLY ENGAGED.

Undocumented immigrants paying more taxes than you think!!

Eight million Undocumented immigrants pay Social Security, Medicare and income taxes. Denying public services to people who pay their taxes is an affront to America’s bedrock belief in fairness. But many “pull-up-the-drawbridge” politicians want to do just that when it comes to Undocumented  immigrants.

The fact that Undocumented immigrants pay taxes at all will come as news to many Americans. A stunning two thirds of Undocumented immigrants pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes.

Yet, nativists like Congressman Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., have popularized the notion that illegal aliens are a colossal drain on the nation’s hospitals, schools and welfare programs — consuming services that they don’t pay for.

In reality, the 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified Undocumented immigrants from nearly all means tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization.

The only services that illegals can still get are emergency medical care and K-12 education. Nevertheless, Tancredo and his ilk pushed a bill through the House criminalizing all aid to illegal aliens — even private acts of charity by priests, nurses and social workers.

Potentially, any soup kitchen that offers so much as a free lunch to an illegal could face up to five years in prison and seizure of assets. The Senate bill that recently collapsed would have tempered these draconian measures against private aid.

But no one — Democrat or Republican — seems to oppose the idea of withholding public services. Earlier this year, Congress passed a law that requires everyone who gets Medicaid — the government-funded health care program for the poor — to offer proof of U.S. citizenship so we can avoid “theft of these benefits by illegal aliens,” as Rep. Charlie Norwood, R-Ga., puts it. But, immigrants aren’t flocking to the United States to mooch off the government.

According to a study by the Urban Institute, the 1996 welfare reform effort dramatically reduced the use of welfare by undocumented immigrant households, exactly as intended. And another vital thing happened in 1996: the Internal Revenue Service began issuing identification numbers to enable illegal immigrants who don’t have Social Security numbers to file taxes.

One might have imagined that those fearing deportation or confronting the prospect of paying for their safety net through their own meager wages would take a pass on the IRS’ scheme. Not so. Close to 8 million of the 12 million or so illegal aliens in the country today file personal income taxes using these numbers, contributing billions to federal coffers.

No doubt they hope that this will one day help them acquire legal status — a plaintive expression of their desire to play by the rules and come out of the shadows. What’s more, aliens who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks.

Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they’ll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers — that the Social Security administration stashes in the “earnings suspense file” — added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus.

The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year. Beyond federal taxes, all illegals automatically pay state sales taxes that contribute toward the upkeep of public facilities such as roads that they use, and property taxes through their rent that contribute toward the schooling of their children.

The non-partisan National Research Council found that when the taxes paid by the children of low-skilled immigrant families — most of whom are illegal — are factored in, they contribute on average $80,000 more to federal coffers than they consume. Yes, many illegal migrants impose a strain on border communities on whose doorstep they first arrive, broke and unemployed.

To solve this problem equitably, these communities ought to receive the surplus taxes that federal government collects from immigrants. But the real reason border communities are strained is the lack of a guest worker program.

Such a program would match willing workers with willing employers in advance so that they wouldn’t be stuck for long periods where they disembark while searching for jobs. The cost of undocumented aliens is an issue that immigrant bashers have created to whip up indignation against people they don’t want here in the first place.

With the Senate having just returned from yet another vacation and promising to revisit the stalled immigration bill, politicians ought to set the record straight: Illegals are not milking the government. If anything, it is the other way around.

The Undocumented Immigrants pay the exact same amount of taxes like you and me when they buy Things, rent a house, fill up gas, drink a beer or wine, buy appliances, play the states lottery and mega millions . Below are the links to just a few sites that will show you exactly how much tax you or the Undocumented Immigrant pays , so you see they are NOT FREELOADERS, THEY PAY TAXES AND TOLLS Exactly the same as you, Now if you take out 10% from your states /city Budget what will your city/state look like financially ?
 Stop your folly thinking , you are wise USE YOUR WISDOM to see the reality. They pay more taxes than you think, Including FEDERAL INCOME TAX using a ITN Number that is given to them by the IRS, Social Security Taxes and State taxes that are withheld form their paychecks automatically.

Taxes, paid by You & the Undocumented are the same in each state check your state :
GAS Taxes paid by you & the Undocumented are the same. Go to and check out your states tax;
Cigarette Taxes paid by you & the Undocumented are the same, check this out in :
Clothing Sales Taxes, are the same paid by you & the Undocumented Immigrant;
City Taxes, are the same paid by you or the Undocumented, since he pays rent and the LANDLORD pays the city :
Beer Taxes,  are the same paid by you or the Undocumented:

I would address you by name, but you didn't leave one.  But, do you feel like you "set me straight?"  "The truth can be tough?"  I read what you had to say.  I've faced tough assaults (though rarely (only in misguided cases) from conservatives.  I finished this and hadn't even raised my breath rate.  If you read this and are undeterred, show me your best shot.  Surely, that wasn't it.  When I say that you need to be set straight, I don't mean that you need to be ridiculed and embarassed.  I mean that you need to understand the realities of what you are engaged in, including the nature of your counterpart.  If you are really interested in dealing with the truth...exhale...unwind...don't let your emotions define what I'm saying.

I'm not angry with you. I'm not attacking you.  I am howver, warning you to focus on the great crack opening beneath you and all of this misplaced animosity.  Speaking briefly of that misplaced animosity, I don't know where you are, but I'm in Houston.  Of course there are criminal elements among illegal aliens, probably more than there are among any population.  But "largely violent, mentally disturbed criminals" has nothing to do with the typical builder, cleaner, and landscaper/horticulturalists that we encounter on a daily basis.  I know you mean well, but this kind of thinking and talk is overwrought and unhelpful.  You seem like a sober and decent man.  Don't discredit yourself and your intentions with that kind of delusion.

And as for me, "RINO...AMNESTY..."  Yesterday, I watched another web conversation about a entirely different subject.  But after the original post, a commenter misconstrued it and attacked.  The 1st person read the comment, misconstrued it and attacked, whereupon the 2nd person responded with a battery of about 8 attacking comments before they finally realized they were on the same side and called a peace.  And I'm a pasty white, freckle-faced scion of British and French ancestors.

Neither one agreed with me or probably you, but this conflagration was suis generis for Internet Blogging.  And, your response looked little different in style.  I never supported amnesty of any sort.  And, I'm old enought to have beheld the birth of the term "RINO," and it didn't describe me, a conservative since my boyhood for whom a S. TX judicial candidate in 1996 who was recommended to me by a conservative, is THE ONLY DEMOCRAT I EVER VOTED FOR IN MY LIFE!  Catch your breath, man.  I'm very worried about America, and I hope my tail isn't in anything like such a disabling and ungracious emotional twist.  But in principle, we aren't exactly miles apart.  You may be startled to learn that I think I'm ideologically to the right of most Republicans, including you.

Again, I say that not in anger but because rationally, I'm dubious to say the least about how our beloved USA will pull out of this spiraling dive that Washington has brought us to.  And, I'm not talking about immigration.  I was serious about the overriding concerns I mentioned in the last two paragraphs.  Perhaps a puckered viscera is inclined to overlook that.  But, we are in one colossal heap of trouble.

I'm guessing that you are still working and paying the bills.  But, if you survived the recent turbulence, hold tight to the side of your boat.  I'm thinking that the approaching downhill whitewater rapids will have you clinging to the back of the boat with your feet banging of the passing rocks.  I'm thinking that at that point, immigration won't be foremost on your mind.

Technically speaking, illegal immigration is a crime.  But "technical" is the operative word.  The biggest social criminals are not illegal aliens but the politicians who have strewn bread crubs in the street and watched the public blame the birds that gathered to eat them.  Focus intently:  the enemy and the threat is not the illegals, but THE FRIGGIN' LIBERALS!  And, they aren't consuming and straining our services and labor force.  They are DESTROYING THE COUNTRY!

Paleoconservatism differs from Neoconservatism on much more than just immigration!  I think implicitly paleoconservatism is being lampooned as reactionary, sentimental, inconsistent, and out-of-touch, but that's not the case at all.

Far from inconsistent, it's the paleoconservative that sees in the Constitution a consistent form of government, and hankers for a return to life under that to which she or he is entitled: her or his political inheritance.  The neoconservative is much more willing to accept the New Deal as a given, and allow that presumption to center the debate of a policy issue.

I disagree with Lou Dobbs and his neomercantilism, and disagree with Pat Buchanan for the same reason.  True, neomercantilism is a problem rampant in paleoconservatism to a larger extent than in neoconservatism, but lets not forget Mike Huckabee urging us to start growing all (or an extremely larger portion) of our own food during his presidential campaign. 

I would consider Ron Paul a paleoconservative, or at least insofar as he is a conservative.  I feel quite certain he would say the problems of immigration are not the ethnicity of the newcomer but the meddling of the federal government.  When minimum wages, price fixes, and subsidies don't make jockeying for goods a collective endeavor, and when federal intrusion doesn't make lifestyle and culture a one-size-fits-all predicament, then one's first concern regarding my neighbor is whether or not s/he is honest and respectful.  Perhaps friendly and dependable are priorities in a neighbor, too, depending on how much one wishes to be community minded.  Whether s/he "took my job" (to borrow the South Park refrain) or will dilute the culture (as if one could be so powerful) are not my concerns, and the market will incentivize allegiance to the principles that made this country great regardless of her/his preferences.

yep yep yep, great post spqr, i admire you for that.  the problem with a lot of these people on this blog is they are intentionally failing to make any distinction between illegal and legal.  and, certain of these people are all wee'd wee'd up thinking ( well not thinking actually ), that if we in Texas do the same thing on immigration that California did, we will get all kinds of shiny new hispanic voters.  Spqr, what makes these people who don't want to listen to you think that Texas is going to be any different in 10 years than the miserable mess that California is in, thanks to rampant immigration levels.  Further, these people around here are way to frightened to address the actual need the U.S. has in regard to population levels and job levels.  CNN TODAY is estimating 40 % few jobs for college graduates next far as I can tell a lot of these RINO republicans only have a silly illogical 2 pronged approach to things, amnesty for illegals, and that is in LARGE part, because they want to sell real estate and consumer goods to 30 million more people.  40% fewer jobs for American graduates, and a population that is set to double in 50 years ( probably sooner ), and we haven't even started on the houston chronicles story about dwindling water levels in light of these insane population numbers.  Anyway, I found your post dead-on accurate, and am glad to see there are other people out there who are logical.  Remember, we toasted scozza in new york, bennett in utah is the next RINO we will take down, either we get conservatives running the republican party, in district after district, or we split up the RINO's so bad, that a democrat wins, and then, when that happens the great sleeping giant of American conservatives will wake up.

Just wow.  WOW!  Surely you didn't read my response to SPQR! All of that agitated screeching about "RINOs"and "amnesty"...about ME?  What a bunch of ill-considered vomit.  As a reasonably established radical right-wing extremist, I could take offense at that if I thought you had the vaguest notion of what or whom you are talking about, which you obviously don't.  So, you aren't malicious if you are ignorant, but you might start by doing a little homework:  here's a start.

California's bankruptcy is caused by illegal immigration, huh?  And all of this time I thought it was their wacky and irresponsible spending on every fantasy that entered their social engineering dreams and taxation that literally maxed out even the patience of Californians and chased most productive investment from the state.  I suppose I should thank your clarity of vision and logic for correcting my misperception.  Are you also going to let Obama and national Democrats off the hook for doing something very similar to the country? 

And, we are only trying to excuse illegal immigration so we can "sell real estate and consumer goods" to more people.  We are just mercenaries, right?  And WHICH one of us is the liberal, again?  Besides, you don't know me or my situation.  If you did, the ridiculousness of your imaginations would be plain to see. 

Again, I never supported amnesty or anything you call amnesty, like what Bush and McCain backed a little while back.  And, I'm confident that I'm more conservative than you and have been for 40 years.  But, you might need to relax your spleen (I thought twice and changed the noun) and see objectively to realize that.  Good luck in the effort...


Again with the bigotry driven isolationist drivel and who is the real conservative and who isn’t, Mr. Logical?! You and whoever continue with your fantasy of orderly anarchy and the rest of us will focus on winning the next big election cycle in 2010 without you. Why should you care anyway, it’s only our nation and our freedom on the line?

Delusion on who's behalf? Is it not clear that Hispanic immigration is detrimental either way? Geting past the allegation of racism. Is 'anglo' culture an adequate reason to preserve? The freedoms and institutions we have derived from Protestant and even humanist heritage; are not theirs.

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